A familiar meeting of minds…

As I asked you to do yesterday, please discuss the following assertions:

A: “The Church is and ever shall be spotless in her sacraments, in the faith which she has always preserved inviolate, and in her sacred laws imposed on all. Vatican II has not changed, and never could change, that fact.”

B: “Let me put it in very simple terms: the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Novus Ordo masses are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to true faith.”

A: “But…”

C: “I know it’s hard for you to get your head around this, but the fundamental problem is that the sacrifice of the Novus Ordo Mass casts blasphemy upon and derogates from the most holy Sacrifice of Christ consummated on the Cross. Why should I tolerate that?”

A: “But, but…!

D: “Look, it’s simple: the canon of the Novus Ordo Missae contains errors and therefore must be abrogated.”


About The Codgitator (a cadgertator)

Catholic convert. Quasi-Zorbatic. Freelance interpreter, translator, and web marketer. Former ESL teacher in Taiwan (2003-2012) and former public high school teacher (2012-2014). Married father of three. Multilingual, would-be scholar, and fairly consistent fitness monkey. My research interests include: the interface of religion and science, the history and philosophy of science and technology, ancient and medieval philosophy, and cognitive neuroscience. Please pray for me.
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7 Responses to A familiar meeting of minds…

  1. I was thinking this weekend that before every Mass the Priest should say something like, “Let me remind everyone not to approach the Eucharist if they believe they are in a state of serious mortal sin or have not gone to Confession within the last year.”

    Saying that would serve the Priest well in stimulating true faith and would be a clear distinction that the Mass is being treated seriously enough to “get away” with being serious about the Sacrament.

    As in, clown masses, dance masses, most guitar masses, sports arena masses, it’d feel weird to say that because you’d be reminding people of the intimate and supernatural aspect of the Eucharist.

  2. Crude says:

    Are those clown masses real? I’ve been hearing about them for a decade, I’ve been hearing for about as long that they never took place, but I think this is the first time I ever thought to ask for info on it.

    As for the OP, I’d like to hear more about the claims of B. All I know is I don’t like Novus Ordo.

  3. They have happened, yes. Weird, but true.

    I will have more to say about the provenance of these assertions after a little time has passed.

  4. daisy says:

    Except for Germany and austria at carnival timr the clown masses have fallen out of favor

  5. It’s amusing to read Lex orandi, est lex credend in the context of the definition of secondary infallibility while remembering that Pope Pius XII taught that is false and then reversed that order in Mediator Dei:

    1. On this subject We judge it Our duty to rectify an attitude with which you are doubtless familiar, Venerable Brethren. We refer to the error and fallacious reasoning of those who have claimed that the sacred liturgy is a kind of proving ground for the truths to be held of faith, meaning by this that the Church is obliged to declare such a doctrine sound when it is found to have produced fruits of piety and sanctity through the sacred rites of the liturgy, and to reject it otherwise. Hence the epigram, “Lex orandi, lex credendi” – the law for prayer is the law for faith.
    2. But this is not what the Church teaches and enjoins. The worship she offers to God, all good and great, is a continuous profession of Catholic faith and a continuous exercise of hope and charity, as Augustine puts it tersely. “God is to be worshipped,” he says, “by faith, hope and charity.”[44] In the sacred liturgy we profess the Catholic faith explicitly and openly, not only by the celebration of the mysteries, and by offering the holy sacrifice and administering the sacraments, but also by saying or singing the credo or Symbol of the faith – it is indeed the sign and badge, as it were, of the Christian – along with other texts, and likewise by the reading of holy scripture, written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. The entire liturgy, therefore, has the Catholic faith for its content, inasmuch as it bears public witness to the faith of the Church.

    3. For this reason, whenever there was question of defining a truth revealed by God, the Sovereign Pontiff and the Councils in their recourse to the “theological sources,” as they are called, have not seldom drawn many an argument from this sacred science of the liturgy. For an example in point, Our predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, so argued when he proclaimed the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. Similarly during the discussion of a doubtful or controversial truth, the Church and the Holy Fathers have not failed to look to the age-old and age-honored sacred rites for enlightenment. Hence the well-known and venerable maxim, “Legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi” – let the rule for prayer determine the rule of belief.[45] The sacred liturgy, consequently, does not decide or determine independently and of itself what is of Catholic faith. More properly, since the liturgy is also a profession of eternal truths, and subject, as such, to the supreme teaching authority of the Church, it can supply proofs and testimony, quite clearly, of no little value, towards the determination of a particular point of Christian doctrine. But if one desires to differentiate and describe the relationship between faith and the sacred liturgy in absolute and general terms, it is perfectly correct to say, “Lex credendi legem statuat supplicandi” – let the rule of belief determine the rule of prayer. The same holds true for the other theological virtues also, “In . . . fide, spe, caritate continuato desiderio semper oramus” – we pray always, with constant yearning in faith, hope and charity.[46]

    When the new theologians(the renamed Modernists) ascended to authority they were constrained to change everything – EVERYTHING – to fit their different Faith and owing to the fact that pam and pat pew dweller are learnt the faith in the Mass, the revolutionaries larded S.C. with numerous escape hatches so they could flee Tradition and build their own shadow church once the crummy council ceased.

    And it is a Shadow Church that has changed Mass, Sacraments, Religious Orders, Breviary, Praxis etc etc to such a point that when M.J. goes to the local franchise of the Shadow Church he is confronted with a radically new Mass, a Lil’ Licit Liturgy, that has expunged nearly everything of value and replaced it with such things as Jewish Meal Prayer in place of the Offertory and where the Roman Canon was crucified, died, and was buried, and in its place the fake words of heretic, Hippolytus, were inserted

    Nothing could be clearer to this aspiring to middle browness status autodidact that the new faith of the modernists required new prayers and ceremonies and rules for everything.

    Here, it is useful to recall the concept of the hermeneutic of continuity created by Bishop Emeritus Ratzinger who included in that concept that fact that such continuity includes both continuity and discontinuity

  6. Hence the epigram, “Lex orandi, lex credendi” – the law for prayer is the law for faith.
    But this is not what the Church teaches and enjoins

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