A little help, please.

1) What did Vatican II teach us that the Church did not already know? IOW, what would a Catholic who were never exposed to the documents of Vatican II lack as a Catholic?

2) What is the magisterial basis for the concept of “dialogue”? I am aware of the biblical arguments that might be brought forward, which can be discussed in their own right, but what I would like to know is where “dialogue” is promoted in the pre-V2 Magisterium.

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About The Codgitator (a cadgertator)

Catholic convert. Quasi-Zorbatic. Freelance interpreter, translator, and web marketer. Former ESL teacher in Taiwan (2003-2012) and former public high school teacher (2012-2014). Married father of three. Multilingual, would-be scholar, and fairly consistent fitness monkey. My research interests include: the interface of religion and science, the history and philosophy of science and technology, ancient and medieval philosophy, and cognitive neuroscience. Please pray for me.
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4 Responses to A little help, please.

  1. Tony Jokin says:

    From what I understand, here are some of the major things that a Catholic will lack without Vatican II.

    a) It is only wrong to reinterpret doctrine and dogma if one openly identifies as a modernist. Otherwise, it is actually commendable to reinterpret doctrine and dogma to a different sense than previously understood. One such commendable instance would be the reinterpretation of doctrine and dogma to give a different meaning so that it will appeal to non-Catholics or displeased Catholics.

    b) Almost everyone before Vatican II, especially the first Apostles, never knew there will be a time when people would find morality of acts, heresy or error obvious. So the advise they gave on how to avoid falling in to error/heresy or immorality is outdated. We have arrived at a golden age where men are so good that the Church just needs to gently nudge.

    c) If heresy is held for a long enough time by a community of persons, it is an error to identify that community as heretical.

    These teachings change the way we live our life as Catholics. So a person without Vatican II can no longer fit in the Catholic Church. From them it also follows that the lack of any supporting evidence for dialogue from pre-Vatican II times is not a big deal. Dialogue is good for our golden age while it simply was inappropriate for anyone before Vatican II.

  2. Tamsin says:
    1. All are saved.
    2. Right there: CCC 39 In defending the ability of human reason to know God has saved all men, the Church is expressing her confidence in the possibility of speaking about him to all men and with all men, and therefore of dialogue with other religions, with philosophy and science, as well as with unbelievers and atheists.
  3. Pingback: Bah! Need brainwash! Latin “Gather Us In!” | A Blog for Dallas Area Catholics

  4. BM says:

    I have a theory that Vatican II can be (almost) entirely understood as taking what came before, zeroing in on the subjective elements, no matter how miniscule or tempered they were, and dialing them up to 11.

    Consider: evangelization becomes dialog; the good becomes values; God becomes “the God of my journey”; the heretic becomes the “brethren”; the pagan becomes the “anonymous Christian”; Muslims become worshippers of the “same” God; atheists become invisible members of the church (along with everyone else for all we know!); words no longer refer to concepts expressing objective realities but flexible subjective experiences that change with the times; objective textual references are replaced with subjective assertions (sc. of “continuity”); logic is replaced with feeling; and on and on. It’s like a great fog of unknowing what we used to know and used to hold as perfectly reasonable.

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