Lest we forget…

“The pope is infallible, not indefectible.”

DISCUSS.

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About The Codgitator (a cadgertator)

Catholic convert. Quasi-Zorbatic. Freelance interpreter, translator, and web marketer. Former ESL teacher in Taiwan (2003-2012) and former public high school teacher (2012-2014). Married father of three. Multilingual, would-be scholar, and fairly consistent fitness monkey. My research interests include: the interface of religion and science, the history and philosophy of science and technology, ancient and medieval philosophy, and cognitive neuroscience. Please pray for me.
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5 Responses to Lest we forget…

  1. Tony Jokin says:

    Well, if anyone wanted to claim that the Pope was indeed indefectible, then they will have to explain how one is to understand the condemnation of Pope Honorius I. I think most Catholics do admit that the Pope is not indefectible. But disagreement arises as to how this affects the faithful.

    Most traditionalist today would argue closer to a view that lack of indefectibility is a reasonable basis to disobey and oppose particular Papal commands which one has good reason (like contradiction with the position of prior Popes and Saints [tradition]) to think is in error.

    Then there is a group that would argue that even if the Pope lacks indefectibility, we must still obey and respect all his commands & positions just because he is the supreme pastor of the Church. They might bring up the example of the need for children to submit to their parents and the foolishness of a child insisting that he/she knows better than the parents (unless the child is appealing from what they have learned from an equal or higher authority to that of the Parents).

    I would argue that the above group is mistaken. The traditionalist leaning group opposes or disobeys certain commands of the Pope precisely because of their allegiance to someone with equal authority (prior Popes). The dilemma is somewhat like asking whether a child should obey the mother or obey the father. Ideally, both the mother and the father should be saying the same thing. But if one were to choose, I think the most reasonable choice is the traditional one (given that countless Popes and the faithful since the early Church have said and held a similar position). The Catholic faith is that which is passed down from Christ to the first Apostles and through the Church to the Catholic faithful. If it is starting to look drastically different from what was passed down for almost 2000 years, then the newer one is must be the mistaken.

  2. Council of Constance

    In the name of the holy and undivided Trinity, Father and Son and holy Spirit. Amen. This holy synod of Constance, which is a general council, for the eradication of the present schism and for bringing unity and reform to God’s church in head and members, legitimately assembled in the holy Spirit to the praise of almighty God, ordains, defines, decrees, discerns and declares as follows, in order that this union and reform of God’s church may be obtained the more easily, securely, fruitfully and freely.

    First it declares that, legitimately assembled in the holy Spirit, constituting a general council and representing the catholic church militant, it has power immediately from Christ; and that everyone of whatever state or dignity, even papal, is bound to obey it in those matters which pertain to the faith, the eradication of the said schism and the general reform of the said church of God in head and members.

    Next, it declares that anyone of whatever condition, state or dignity, even papal, who contumaciously refuses to obey the past or future mandates, statutes, ordinances or precepts of this sacred council or of any other legitimately assembled general council, regarding the aforesaid things or matters pertaining to them, shall be subjected to well-deserved penance, unless he repents, and shall be duly punished, even by having recourse, if necessary, to other supports of the law.

    Consistory Allocution of 2 June 1944, “The mandate Confided to Peter”, Pope Pius XII stated:
    Mother Church, Catholic, Roman, which has remained faithful to the constitution received from her divine Founder, which still stands firm today on the solidity of the rock on which His will erected her, possesses in the primacy of Peter and of his legitimate successors, the assurance, guaranteed by the divine promises, of keeping and transmitting inviolate and in all its integrity through the centuries and millennia to the very end of time the entire sum of truth and grace contained in the redemptive mission of Christ.

    Pope Pius IX: Quanta Cura

    1) “We cannot pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that ‘without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to concern the Church’s general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogmata of faith and morals.’ But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church.”

    Proposueramus quidem “To Michael the Emperor” 865 a.d. ...Furthermore if you have not heard us, it remains for you to be with us of necessity, such as our Lord Jesus Christ has commanded those to be considered, who disdained to hear the Church of God, especially since the privileges of the Roman Church, built upon Peter by the word of Christ, deposited in the Church herself, observed in ancient times and celebrated by the sacred universal Synods, and venerated jointly by the entire Church, can by no means be diminished; for the foundation which God has established, no human effort has the power to destroy and what God has determined remains firm and strong…

    If a pope is foreknown as damned and is evil, and is therefore a limb of the devil, he does not have authority over the faithful given to him by anyone, except perhaps by the emperor was a proposition of Wyclif which was condemned at the Council of Constance

    Chapter 3. 
On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff

    1. And so, supported by the clear witness of Holy Scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman Pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical Council of Florence [49], which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church and father and teacher of all Christian people.
    To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal Church.

    All this is to be found in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons.

    2. Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.
    3. In this way, by unity with the Roman Pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the Church of Christ becomes one flock under one Supreme Shepherd [50].

    1. This is the teaching of the Catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation.

    If one is Catholic, one has no choice but to obey and maintain the Bonds on Unity in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority.

    The propaganda of the sspx has, sadly prompted many to deny the infallible teaching about the Pope (yes, even this one) which is that we have to obey him – even the poor Franciscans – and he has not ode red M>J. Young to obey anything that is contrary to my conscience.

    He is my Pope and Cross

  3. Sorry, that was supposed to read – he has not ordered M.J. Young to obey anything…

  4. The point of my maxim (hypothetically) is that papal infallibility only ensures that a pope will not wed the whole Church to dogmatic error, not that he himself is immune from being wed to it. Even though Pope Honorius was a heretic, he was still recognized as pope until his dying day, whereupon he was judged posthumously as a pope.

  5. And there was no small amount of poignant irony yesterday when I heard the priest exhort us to take up our cross every day, no matter what form it might take (e.g. a wife, job, children, illness, poverty, etc.). And even a pope? Yes, even a pope.

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